Lily O’Farrell of @VulgaDrawings posted this informative comic about everything she’s learned about incels and the manosphere. The manosphere is a collection of websites, and forums promoting masculinity, misogyny, and a strong opposition to feminism. Communities within it include incels (involuntary celibates), men’s rights activists (MRA), Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW), pick-up artists (PUA), etc. Here’s what she had to say:
“I was on woman’s hour on Monday talking about the conversations I’ve had in my DMs with teenage boys and young men who are stuck in the manosphere.
1. It’s a bigger community than you might think (estimation is 100,000 worldwide but it’s almost impossible to determine, that number isn’t including the rest of the manosphere or the alt right)
2. Approaching with empathy means you can understand the root cause, and eradicate it from there.
3. Incels are a huge danger to themselves, as well as other people.
4. The memes are important! Being able to recognise a symbol of radicalisation could save someone’s life. Every image in this is a real meme that I’ve re-drawn (apart from slide 8)
5. If you want to learn more about this, I’ll put some resources in my story.”
Artist: Lily O’Farrell of @VulgaDrawings
This article is sexist and offensive. Men have every right to seek equity in areas where women dominate (divorce hearings, custody rights for children, unnecessary alimony when a woman is able to work) but instead this article paints each group with the same brush and slurs them with the term “manosphere” instead of having a nuanced discussion.
Well to that, let me say this: PBBBBBBBBBLLLLT
Dan’s surname is a dead give away.
What does that even mean? What is his name “giving away”, and how is it doing that?
It’s anti-semitic junk.
You’re trash. Literal garbage.
> Men have every right to seek equity in areas where women dominate (divorce hearings, custody rights for children, unnecessary alimony when a woman is able to work)
yes, you’re correct. Nobody’s denying that. The article calls that out even. That falls under the category of “incels see this as problems caused by women”, but in reality they are a product of the Patriarchy. So your complaint shows that you kind of missed the point of the entire article.
I’m curious. How are those things a product of the patriarchy?
I can understand why someone could interpret “patriarchy” as a way to direct blame to a specific sex; and therefore think that doing so is itself sexist.
Is it patriarchal because it’s reinforcing traditional gender roles to expect women to be better parents; need support from a man etc? If so, are there any feminist movements trying to stop this from happening? I haven’t heard this come up from feminism. If anything, it comes up as part of mens rights, which is usually interpreted as antifeminist (this comic included).
I’d be interested to read more on this topic if you can point me somewhere.
> “If so, are there any feminist movements trying to stop this from happening? I haven’t heard this come up from feminism”
If I’m reading your words correctly, you’re asking if feminism has tried to stop the constant reinforcement of (strict) traditional gender roles. Allow me to point you somewhere, then: A Vindication of the Rights of Woman, by Mary Wollstonecraft. It’s generally considered one of the foundational texts of Western (aka European) feminism, and it’s free to read online since it’s from 1792. Obviously feminist philosophy has evolved since that time, but it’s good to start at the beginning to get a feel for things.
Or you could just pop some keywords like “feminist gender roles” into your search engine of choice and start reading through the recommendations. Feminist philosophy isn’t a monolith, after all, and so there’s conflict about the topic of gender roles. If you’re asking in good faith to be educated, then please do your own research. You can easily look up the names and books of prominent feminists both historical and modern.
And if you’re trying to sealion people, then let this be a big ol’ stop sign planted right in your path. If you try to pull me into a “but what about” discussion about this, I won’t respond.
I think Tim’s comment was more specific than general ideology. On those specific issues, if Men’s Rights groups aren’t supposed to exist to tackle them, is there another group that is or should? Is it fair to expect Femininst groups to lobby on behalf of men’s issues or should men’s groups exist to lobby on behalf of those issues. And if men’s group’s should exist, how A) Do we define/shape them so they aren’t seen as anti-feminist or threatening to feminist groups, and B) how do we filter out the ideologies and prevent the co-opting of such a group by the far-right?
The patriarchy sets the gender roles, women have fought always against them and have constantly had to fight for our rights; our rights to our own bodies, our own names, to choose a partner not have one chosen, to work, earn an independent living, to wear pants and choose how little or how much we want to cover up, the right for birth control and freedom to enjoy our sexuality, to vote, to be educated, to be allowed to choose certain occupations that men wouldn’t allow us to have (doctors, lawyers, pilots, ect), to have the right to have our own bank accounts, credit cards and loans without having to get a man’s permission, the right to be ourselves and not what gender roles the patriarchy tells us we need to be, and along side our fight we have also fought against the patriarchal gender rolls that men are expected to fit. Like fighting for gay rights, protecting men who don’t fit patriarchal ideals and like women live with the dangers of that, we have fought for boys to be allowed to feel, cry, play with whatever they want to, to wear and dress up in whatever colour or outfit they want to, to wear makeup or not, to just be whoever they want to be and not be afraid to have emotions and talk. Everything that oppresses men’s ability to express themselves and their emotions and understand how to process them is a symptom of the patriarchy. Expectations and rolls set by the majority of the people in charge and that’s men. Men run the government, the corporations, the religion’s, the media and apparently the household too…so get rid of patriarchy and get rid of all the toxic masculinity that harms men, not just women. That harms people, all people regardless of their gender. We are all human, and Women and Men are all much more alike than different add to that we are all individuals and the men vs women thing is just kinda made up bullshit. Humans. Just all people.
I’ve never been on an incel board, but I have followed boards for social anxiety, two of which were targeted by trolls who wanted to hurt people with social anxiety. What I saw makes me wonder what a woman who spent years on incel boards might have done to stir the emotions she claims incels have. Her trolls could be anyone as well. Has she actually verified that any of them are really incels? If you go back to the origin of the term, you’ll realize that you’re talking about a lot of people, and you’re stigmatizing anyone who fits the simple definition of not having had sex for at least a year. I saw the latest scare report today. One of its points was that incels are a danger because they’ve been bullied a lot. If that’s true, shouldn’t someone go after all the women on MediaChomp who’ve talked about being bullied, lest they become violent? Maybe they should go after the artist. She’s been trolled, and that’s a form of bullying. She’s also drawing something that would incite bullying against incels, which would make her part of the problem. True, she mentions empathy, but only after stigmatizing a lot of people with a broad brush and inciting others to bully them.
A lot of your readers and contributors love Japanese culture, as I do. You do know that statements condemning hikikomori (reclusive males) can get knocked down as hate speech there, don’t you? Hikikomori would be close analogues to incels. A gamer girl also lost her endorsements recently for insulting short men. I’m guessing there’s a lot of MediaChomp stuff that wouldn’t be big in Japan.
I fail to see how she was condemning reclusive people. Incels tend to be reclusive, but plenty of reclusive people are perfectly pleasant and nowhere was it implied that we aren’t.
Surely the vast majority of dangerous people are the ones who’ve had or are having sex? See ex marital rape.
Irrelevant, since the focus is on THESE dangerous people. If someone is talking about Indian cobras, do you butt in about how “well MOST of the venomous snakes in the world are actually in AUSTRALIA”?
No small irony that the very first comment is by an incel.